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Council of State leaves nothing to the proposed old-timer scheme

De Citroen GS X2 from 1977. One of the cars for which MRB would have to be paid in the 40 annual compromise. The Council of State seems to think very differently about this.
ER Classics Desktop 2022

The Council of State has not been in the dark about the old-timer arrangement as it was agreed this spring by State Secretary Frans Weekers and the old-timer alliance. This is reported by political reporter Hans Verbeek on Business News Radio. The 40 year compromise has been compromised on many points. The political body thus appears to be taking an important next step in the offensive initiated by Vrijstellingoldtimer.nl against the adjustment of the current regulation.

Unclear and not feasible
The scheme is unclear and cannot be implemented. It must be completely overhauled. The 40-year compromise gets a big fail from the Council of State. Furthermore, the political body indicated that "in terms of money the political measure is not much". That is debatable, because the amount of income foregone when the oldtimer scheme is introduced puts that comment in a different perspective.


Stumbling block
What the Council of State particularly stumbles on is the transitional arrangement for gasoline cars that are older than 26 years. “They are not allowed to drive for three winter months in order to qualify for a quarterly rate. And for diesel engines and LPG drivers with a car between 26 and 40 years old, that doesn't count. It is impossible to monitor that and therefore not or hardly practicable. "The environmental argument can also be dismissed:" That story cannot be checked at all, softly expressed. "

De Citroen GS X2 from 1977. One of the cars for which MRB would have to be paid in the 40 annual compromise. The Council of State seems to think very differently about this.
De Citroen GS X2 from 1977. One of the cars for which MRB would have to be paid in the 40 annual compromise. The Council of State seems to think very differently about this.

 

Nothing about clarity
The Council of State is clear in its opinion. The 40 year compromise is impracticable and unclear. There is something else: it is also inconsistent and inconsistent with the views that Secretary of State Frans Weekers previously had on the old-timer problem. He once said in a parliamentary debate that he did not want to create exceptions and separate rules for specific groups of old-timer owners. The old-timer scheme as proposed now is at odds with that.

Original evaluation moment
Previously, Vrijstellingoldtimer.nl - the only advocacy organization that still deals with the fight against the 40 year compromise - already demonstrated that there is no question of watertightness in legal terms. In addition, something remarkable came to light: the current regulation - the Van Vliet Amendment - would only be evaluated by The Hague in 2015. An adjustment to the current old-timer scheme is therefore also highly remarkable.

Next step
The Council of State has in any case sent a very clear signal. A signal that confirms the efforts of Vrijstellingoldtimer.nl. And a very important next step is towards maintaining the MRB exemption for old and young timers in the current form.

 

88 Comments

Give a reaction
    • As if the fuel in the Netherlands is not yet expensive enough, yes it is a good idea in itself, because just look at France, but the mess is cheaper there than here. Eneuh I don't care about that anyway because I have been filling in Germany for years. With me many more people in NL border regions. Toll roads or driving a bill could be a solution, but then something must certainly be done with the ridiculously high holding tax.

  1. I have read it a bit, but now I do not know whether the new scheme is complete or not.
    I have an American of 33 years old on LPG.
    what should I do.

    mvg.frans

  2. regularly see fairly new cars, passing by with a thick smoke
    is that so environmentally friendly no !!! it's just about the money
    just keep the vintage cars tax-free and stop the import of classic cars
    with the exception of cars, 40 years and older. seems fair to me

  3. Why do you think that has already been put together and set up? Could it also be that the interests of the car industry have been bathed in the disappearance of older cars. for example, it is also difficult to maintain an older car at the garage. The parts supply also ceases after 10-15 years. There is a very high depreciation on capital in cars. The industry only benefits from the rapid replacement and sale of new cars. It is not expected and appreciated that private individuals work on cars as a hobby. For each car brand, parts are built in for which a special tool or part is required to prevent everyone from having access and it is therefore expected that specialized brand-dependent garages will do this.
    Look for this whole thing somewhere else. the government represents the market and has little benefit from private individuals who pay little or no pay. Doesn't matter who rules the market. The car industry has little to do with the private ownership of cars, whether they are old or new, it is preferable to have a crash with them immediately after purchase, which will generate money.
    Old timers are those cars that keep going against their will. Of course there is also money to be made from maintenance of this old park. And what ministers come up with is only there because it is expected of them by this market. And certainly not for the benefit of a minority.
    If the car industry is bathed in vintage cars, the minister will most likely say something else. And I don't think you should think about the environment or appreciation of cultural heritage considerations. Paying taxes is a real consideration, just pay the bill, that is free market forces of capitalists. Isn't it a luxury problem?
    Peter

  4. My daily transportation is a Smart. In the better months of the year I occasionally drive air-cooled VW, actually only with holidays and / or events.

    I can only drive 1 cars at the same time and I want to pay for that. It does not seem difficult to me to invent a system for that.

  5. For my Dodge W200 I plan to make a nice picture with the inscription Bi-Fuel… You should actually get a discount for that instead of a penalty….

  6. when are they going to do something about all those environmentally polluting old trucks with PL, RO, LT, BU license plates, who have stolen the jobs here and now clog our roads for free and put them to hell.
    How long do we have to wait before our government will (rightly) levy tax on this

  7. campers are still in the quarter rate? and disabled people who need a bus for eg mobility scooter can drive a bus for a gray registration fee. is a standard form with the tax authorities, is arranged in no time.

  8. last year had to exchange our disabled bus (traffic / petrol) because we had to take two scoot mobiles with us, that was before all this nonsensical plan was presented, then bought a saviem sg2 mb 35 diesel, this bus is big enough so that I can take the two scooters with me, and put my couch in it, I can also change and wash myself in it and go to the toilet, so now I hear that I have to pay 3110 euros, while the bus also buy he was still completely tax free, he is 34 years old, so why take away my (our) transport because I can not reverse the purchase, I will not get anything more for my diesel (not that I would like this, because it is a beautiful bus, where there is still very little driving, mr weekers I really should not encounter on the way, because my bus weighs 3500 kilos and the front bumper alone 200 kilos, I hope they will wake up, because if this continues they will have me a lawsuit to the high council on their pants, if only for improper control ur / improper administration / and niety think about what they are doing to the Dutch population and the chronically ill and disabled in particular now, because we cannot plan anything like this thanks for reading gr gisela and cornell

  9. we have 9 buses that we do not use commercially, only educationally some 40 years against others. The government is talking about equal opportunities and the people in this society are not old-timer enthusiasts.
    What will enforcement cost be going to do that, are people coming to meetings and are you being fined there?
    In other European countries, the right is already at 25 year, but here we have to make money if necessary from enthusiasts and people who want to keep these beautiful vehicles for posterity.
    We are a museum without a subsidy, it was gone years ago.
    But we will continue with everything, if necessary in a procession to The Hague

  10. In recent years I have put a lot of savings in my camper bus (Den Oudsten Daf MB200). This too is not often from the stable and is certainly not used for daily driving. For the 2000 km that I still drive per year, I have to pay € 3148 from January if the exemption is abolished. This way I can't keep it, but I can hardly sell it for an amount that even covers half of the costs I have spent in recent years. Very acidic. I can therefore hope that The Hague will use its wits.

  11. as far as I know, the oltimer arrangement had come as a broker for the cook's quarter.
    This would be a temporary measure. Now the estate agent is taken away, but the temporary measure, the penny of cook, we still battles.

  12. the fairest thing is if your old-timer is road tax-free if you also have a car for which you pay road tax
    but not possible according to the Fehac (fehac is the organization that has defended everything so well and agreed with the new regulation)

    the rdw can not see that you have 2 cars I think

  13. Oldtimer enthusiasts,
    From day 1, I have also said on the merchant site that the soup is never eaten as hot as served. The new measures will not go ahead or will be reversed in due course, which has already happened in the past. But in the meantime the livelihood and hobby of many people has been helped to ……. from the oldtimers. Just keep calm and enjoy your hobby, and you can always dismantle it.
    Greetings Ben

  14. Weekers is representative of the unreliable government. As many have already said, the substantiation of the cabinet is based on data that has long since lost their relevance. Anyone who has some common sense can conclude that the measures to be taken regarding the old-timer scheme have nothing to do with the environment. I recently visited the company where I had bought my young timer after a lot of searching and saw that the building was now for rent. Another company where I can assume that those involved must apply for benefits. I also notice that where I voted differently on the left or in the middle a subsequent vote might become more radical.

  15. People what I read here is that everyone is against the road tax. This is not all the government makes it very bond with its cuts of 6 BILLION at the expense of its own people / country.
    What needs to be done is to press emergency stop and together we are strong and have the power to drop the government and a new election. Yes, and who are you voting for?

  16. In any case, the whole story is legally incorrect. I have, and many with me, once had a written confirmation from the tax authorities in which I obtained an unconditional exemption from payment of MRB for my great oldtimer, in this case an Eldorado on the very environmentally friendly LPG. There is therefore an unreliable government if this exemption is unilaterally lifted. In any case, I don't have to try this kind of antics ...

  17. How easy can an arrangement be? If you pay for a car while road tax, an old-timer can remain tax-free. In this way you remove all the vintage cars that are used as the first car from the street. That was the purpose of this scheme

    • Of course it is not as easy as it seems. If it actually depends on a “regular” car, you would already have a problem when you sell that car and you don't have a replacement in your name the same day before. then you could expect a fat bill within a few days. This is again too complicated.

  18. Someone who says that this is an environmental measure and at the same time requires that you remove your LPG tank from your car to meet a certain condition should actually be dismissed immediately.

  19. It is only in The Hague for the money.
    Those who pursue a better environment do not have to burden LPG drivers extra '
    In addition, you can use an “environmental sticker system” for the inner city of the major cities. That turns out to work well in Germany, because for my recent Volvo D5 I even need one.
    Let the Randstad thinkers limit themselves to thinking for their own Randstad!

  20. It seems to me a good plan to measure how much emissions the vehicle causes during the annual MOT. If you then also count the mileage, you can determine exactly how much sludge was blown into the air that year. You may then pay tax on this basis. You will indeed catch the dirty old, many-wheeled diesels. The dirty fat modern hummers etc. too. It would also be nice to look at motorcycles, young or old, they are not known to be clean! Then take those 20km scooters right away. By order of the government, they are adjusted in such a way that they blow more dirt into the air than a few neat old-timers together !!!!

    • It could well be that the environmental impact of a new car, including the production thereof, gives a greater mille load per kilometer traveled than driving a classic car.

  21. I have a citroen Hy out of 78 on gas,

    as it looks now, it will remain inside for the upcoming 4 year and I will occasionally do a round at our factory site.

    Paying for something that has been going on for years and I also have a letter from the tax authorities that I am exempt from the Mrb, I don't think so.

    I also have a duck from 1957, this is exempt from everything and I will ride it nicely every day, I put my bus inside and let it suspend or something and then drive completely mrb

  22. We now know that we will be sewn anyway, and we now also know by whom, only when and when is still a bit of a question.
    buy new fighter jets that costs at least a lot of money and seems like a good plan then you see at least that what you paid for overflight

  23. I think they don't get involved with the 40 year scheme because there will be plenty of enthusiasts who then put away their new car and then only drive the old-timer emphasized on the LPG and diesel. I also have 1 myself and I really do not want to leave because I have an oldtimer for that because I am away from that particular type of car and if you still have to make a choice then I prefer to put my new car away and keep the oldtimer nevertheless pays to drive on the road all day, then pay even more than my new car.

    I prefer to leave it in the garage, especially during the winter, but they leave you no choice.

    Mvg gerie

    • but they can also turn back those 40 years in such a way that… cabinet they do now too
      they adjust all those rules that are written in the law to knock the milk cow money out of the purse again, but as soon as you start earning something more, because you
      in this expensive country the blue envelopes have to fall through the letterbox again
      so that they can give away the money that they have to take care of abroad
      and then try to get it back, with the same milk cow, with their old classic car ..

  24. Weekers expects me to catch € 1 for my 0 cars instead of € 5500, = from 3 January.
    My commuting car goes by 1 Jan. also from A-label to B-label and therefore has to pay WB for this.
    It should be clear that I will not cooperate with those bag filler driving practices, so my hobby ends for January when 1 goes ahead.
    And I'm not even talking about the fall in value of my vintage cars.
    If a common man made such a scheme, he would be prosecuted for criminal behavior.

  25. Only 10% will pay the road tax, so only 150 will be left of the intended 15 million.
    They do make it a priceless hobby for the ordinary man.
    It is also capital destruction, many thousands of cars have plummeted.

  26. We are also the bobbin with our buick regal coupon from 1979 on gas that is at most 1000 km per year on the public road and is further in the garage.
    And we, too, in a city like Rotterdam are disturbed by all those stink diesels dumped by Germany that were purchased purely for economic reasons.
    And they not only emit soot and so on, but often also mountains of burnt oil because they are mostly wrecks.
    It therefore seems clear to me that something must be done.
    An 120 day card seems to be in place here, and then linked to an exemption for standing still along the road, there are people who don't drive in it daily but have it at the door.
    Well I read a clipping card here but that is hard to check and we live in 2014 so why not a modern system.
    Just a telephone number that you can call with a computer attached to it, you get a choice menu where you first have to enter a personal access code and / or license plate, then the date and number of days you will use it.
    Connect this system to the automatic license plate recognition system which is now everywhere and which is already linked to the system of the tax authorities to track down defaulters and ready.
    For example, attach a price tag of one euro per call, regardless of fuel, and it also generates something and whoever pays more pays more, so it is also fairly distributed.
    Then the 26 year limit can stay upright and the daily rider can no longer go anywhere and will have to clean up his cheap diesel.
    So it can be that simple 🙂

    • exemption is exemption, what are you writing now, maybe there is still a place for you under the wings of the… cabinet rutte, or is it rotten ..

  27. Everything can be broken..the new slogan of this government!
    First turn everything upside down and then turn it back later if it is too late!
    I have a Volvo from '68 on LPG… am I still a lucky guy or soon just fucked?
    As if it concerns environment / air pollution… or to be able to sell more new cars….
    Now the diesel / LPG prices are going up again… why? You already pay extra road tax for that? Pump owners in the border region / oldtimer dealers / gas installation companies etc. etc.
    Everything can be broken…. Does Rutte not drive an old Saab?

    • One time it happened to be that buses pollute the air, especially in the city center, withholding from statistical data has now been recorded a few years ago, I now no longer live in the labor process due to retirement. From me, large buildings such as government archives, history museum can now only come to locations where there is good public transport without causing environmental pollution such as buses to start. Still car owners make life miserable and impossible, in particular seniors make them even more unattainable. Free transport for the elderly to front door everywhere you go sometimes?

      • You say that, but look at how you formed this sentence, o bit too much T
        this was intended for you by the way, Jan Gown, are in discussion about exemption from this
        motor vehicle tax, not about typing or language errors ..

  28. Do you know what I'm afraid of? That this whole plan is being taken away tightly and everything remains the same, but due to all the commotion a lot of companies have now had to close their doors.
    Why the Netherlands is run by incompetent administrators. Where have the people gone who simply act with common sense instead of the current, through difficult and nonsensical training, have “earned” their status. Because I see more and more problems caused by people like this, there are plenty of examples. These incompetent folks are only interested in their own resume and status.
    We'll just wait.

    • What is € 10 in a month for a hobby?
      I do not see the problem and have several hobby cars that cost money anyway, but now the LPG has to be removed!
      And I have never understood people who have a Mercedes 190 D as a hobbié

      • In addition to a few older classics, I also have a Mercedes 300D from 1983 and an 200D from 1985 both in perfect condition and according to the soot measurement at the MOT as clean as the requirements for a diesel of the year 2000, how polluting?
        These cars drive about 3000 km per year, so they are just as entitled to exemption from holder tax.
        The real oldtimer / classic enthusiast does not distinguish between the various cars.

        SUPPORT http://www.vrijstellingoldtimer.nl

      • The problem is

        a) that with the removal of the LPG installation the fuel has suddenly become more expensive by one euro per liter. I enjoyed driving an American car (about 4000km per year) but now costs me 800 euros more in fuel per year. With 40 cents per km of gasoline the fun is over.

        b) I hardly drive in winter and in itself the December-February driving ban doesn't seem like much of a problem. However, during this period I spend time on maintenance and this is also part of the hobby. For that I sometimes have to go out by car (key workshop, etc.) or make a test drive, for example (if there is no brine on the road), but that is no longer possible. The hobby is gone here too.

        c) The 3,5 year old LPG installation has to be removed (I do not earn back the nearly 3000 euro road tax with the few kilometers). However, it can no longer be sold because 2nd hand LPG parts may not be installed in another car. The items are still as new but disappear on the scrap heap. So much for sustainability ...

        d) I will not claim that I have an environmentally friendly car, but the environment is really better off with the emissions of 800 liters of LPG than with the emissions of 800 liters of gasoline.

        e) The government has indicated that it will spare the hobbyist, but that is not always the case. If one wants to tackle abuse then it must be done in such a way that a considerable part of the right-minded hobbyist is not also the victim.

        Conclusion: I want to pay a bit of tax, but then I just want to be able to drive all year round and on LPG.

  29. and yes, again something beautiful that our beloved government wants to kill,
    and not to mention the companies that are involved in it,
    these can close their doors,
    again more people without work.
    the scheme costs more than it generates for rutte and samson, for example,
    in short, to become nauseous.

  30. It's all about the POEN !!
    If, as an old-timer holder, you also have a regular car for which you pay road tax, it seems to me to be a superfluous measure. It is a hobby, if that should be taxed then we still know a lot, eg sailing tax for all pleasure yachts, tax on allotment gardens etc. Tomorrow participate in the Day of the Revolution in The Hague, we are fed up with the Hague mafia !!!

  31. The only thing the council of states has said is that the feasibility of the transitional arrangement for petrol cars is poorly enforceable, and that a separate rule regarding petrol cars goes against an earlier statement by Weekers that he would not make exceptions for certain groups of old-timers. .

    It is shocking to read that organizations that rely on donations are using this fact to pat themselves on the back and immediately throw in some interpretations of their own that are still getting lost.

    In fact, the council of states has said it is unfair and unenforceable that a limited exemption for gasoline cars has been enacted, ... so what is the easiest way to solve the problem and bring in more money, ... …… exactly: S

  32. If a proposed measure harms an entire industry, I think it is only well thought out to withdraw such a measure.
    The entire automotive industry is experiencing extremely difficult times, car sales have reached a historic low. To make it even more difficult for the branch by unleashing a measure on a part of it that was still going well, there is certainly no support and even looks like the breakdown of this industry. This will not reduce the number of unemployed.

    The fact that a large number of these companies already now, even before the proposed measure takes effect, can no longer sustain it and sometimes even goes bankrupt, can be found on the many oldtimer sites.
    This makes perfect sense, as owners of a car to be restored postpone work until there is clarity. After this, if the proposed measure goes ahead, in many cases an adjustment will follow.

    It is therefore to be hoped that Parliament will weigh the consequences of these measures thoroughly against each other and not just include the, notional, tax revenues.
    For the companies and their owners, I hope that they know how to find their way to their MPs.

  33. It is not unreasonable to ask for a contribution from oldtimer enthusiasts who also use the road. I am in favor of the 'German' arrangement. Possibility of H registration if car is older than 30, but also requirements for condition and maintenance. In addition, holders of H license plates also have to pay some form of tax in Germany. Even more than the Dutch quarter rate.
    Incidentally, it is quite a good plan to tackle the old diesels when they are chosen as daily transport to be cheap, but they are highly polluting. After all, that is no longer hobbyism.

  34. But one thing I do not fully understand this is now only about cars and trucks and not about motorcycles and other vehicles, so not about all old-timers.

  35. Honest or not fair is irrelevant.
    If a measure is ineffective or even primarily harms a sector, such a measure may not be implemented.
    Moreover, things should not be made more complicated than necessary.
    Leaving everything as it is now is the only solution. Enough damage has already been caused by the announcement of Weekers' plans at the end of last year.

  36. I still have a Ford taunus V6 GXL 2liter from 1971 with 50.k km on the counter which I have taken back from the sidelines after more than 30 years. It is like new and runs perfectly. Always hope to drive a nice oldtimer later with a nice arrangement on it. However, the government has said that this type of scheme is outrageous. Money has to come from everywhere, even in an economic recession for 4500.000.000. euro JSF fighter jets must be purchased. Is now strongly thinking to get rid of this car as I no longer have any certainty about what is happening.

  37. All cars older than 30 tax-free as a basis, then enter 60 or 90 day card (own cutting card), if you go on the road, cut yourself and so, one card costs for gasoline 25 euros, gas 50 euros and diesel 75 euros . Enforcement, therefore, when tampered with control, costs 250 euro fine 1e times and full motor vehicle tax rate for second offense, for that year! At least the government provides some money and is still reasonable to pay for the average old-timer enthusiast.
    I think this is the most neutral way, which will continue to work in the long term.

    greeting

    GH

  38. Hopefully someone will finally start thinking and calculating. They think they will raise money by changing the old-timer scheme because people will now pay MRB. However, the consequence is that the majority of people have to get rid of the car because it is unaffordable (after all, the hobby car is only there and not the daily car). The money from the extra MRB is therefore not available. In addition, various companies that trade in parts and / or oldtimer cars go so far back that they have to fire people or even go bankrupt, which costs the government even more money.

      • Totally agree. Drive an old-timer myself, but also two cars for commuting (one for the female) so I already pay a lot of mrb. I say deal with the abuse, but that is not feasible. Probably costs more than it yields. A 60 or 90 or 120 day card seems like a good option.

        Gr. RCTGB11

  39. Look, they are doing well. No money is being made for the treasury because companies will go bankrupt again if they continue. So just leave it that way.

    gr Ron.

  40. Hopeful,
    Support the action “exemption oldtimer”, perhaps this amendment to the law that is loss-making for all parties involved will be discontinued.

  41. it appears that somewhere in the ned there is still a sober farmer's mind,
    you will only be fired and your hobby car that you do not drive every day, and you may like to tinker with, will also be taken away from you, I can also go on and on about the Dutch policy to be at the forefront of everything and to make ridiculous money. throw me in.
    (if this was also the case at my company, it would go down tomorrow (see eg the Netherlands as a company)
    regards.

    • Jan-Otto,

      Farmers' misunderstandings that they miss there in The Hague. We just buy solid 37 JSF for 4,5 billion, no problem, we apparently have money for that.

      What an incompetent k …… lazy, she's sick of it.

      GR RTGBX NUMX

  42. Look, then the companies that maintain vintage cars and parts of sales etc etc can also continue to breathe.
    And many people who cannot afford their oldtimers otherwise, hope for good things.

    • Totally agree! Get rid of those idiotic plans, save the companies that work / trade in this branch, and save the old / young-timer enthusiast!

      Just for fun think about how much energy is lost in the production of those crazy hybrid cars, and then don't even think about the batteries that will ever break down and need to be replaced .. Why bad for the environment?

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